#91 - How to Choose the Right Marketing Strategies For YOU? with Michelle DeNio

If you've ever felt overwhelmed by all the marketing noise (ahem 🙋🏼‍♀️), then this episode is your reset button. 👏

In this powerful peer-to-peer convo, I sit down with business coach + marketing strategist Michelle DeNio to talk about what no one tells you:

👉 Every marketing strategy can work.
But not every strategy will work for you.

Michelle breaks down how to cut through the noise, stop chasing shiny tactics, and build a marketing strategy that fits YOUR values, brain, lifestyle, and capacity. We talk about finding clarity, ditching misaligned launches, and trusting yourself to say “no” to the cookie-cutter playbooks.

🎯 Whether you're stuck in strategy burnout or wondering what to focus on next, this episode is packed with clarity.

Big Takeaways:

• 💡 How to reverse-engineer a strategy that matches your lifestyle
• 🤯 Why your business model should fit your energy type (not a guru’s funnel)
• 🚫 The dangers of one-size-fits-all advice
• 🧠 The mindset shifts every solopreneur needs to scale sustainably
• 🔄 A real look at email, podcasts, launches, SEO, and networking — what actually works (and for who)

Michelle also shares:

• Her favorite underrated strategy for lead generation 🔥
• Why she hosts weekly 4-on-4 networking calls that are full of referrals
• How she turned coffee chats into a 6-figure business without fancy funnels

This is a real, honest conversation for purpose-driven entrepreneurs who are done with the overwhelm and ready to show up in alignment.

🔗 Connect with Michelle: michelledenioconsulting.com

👉🏻 Register for a Four on Four Networking session.

👯‍♀️ Join Back Pocket Insights

Mindset to Market is a Luminous Creative Production. If you'd like to learn more about our business coaching program and group coaching container, please visit us online at DeborahcSmith.com.

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Mindset to Market is produced by Deborah C. Smith and designed to inspire and support big-hearted creatives in finding their own unique path, building a sustainable business, and creating financial, spiritual, mental wellness and abundance.

🎉 Work with Deborah Learn More
💕 Visit Deborah online at DeborahCSmith.com
💕 Follow on the 'Gram. @deborah_smith_coaching

Transcript

 Hey, you guys. Welcome back to The Mindset To Market Show. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, I'm so excited to, uh, bring on my special guest today. She's a business coach and a marketing strategist.

Her name is Michelle Dia, and Michelle is all about helping entrepreneurs cut through the noise of the online space. Stop chasing every shiny tactic out there, and instead really discover the right strategy that's gonna work for them. To actually get the work done, right? So she helps entrepreneurs find clarity and focus in their business so they can bridge the gap between big picture vision and those big goals and actionable execution, like actually taking the day-to-day steps and then move forward with a lot of confidence in their work because they're doing it.

So with that practical yet personal approach, Michelle empowers business owners to stop second guessing and start building with confidence. And I met Michelle recently on one of her networking calls that she was hosting. Absolutely loved her vibe, found. We had a lot of things in common, and I invited her to come on the show to sort of have a, a chat, a peer-to-peer chat about strategy and, and how all strategies work.

But. For a strategy to work for you, it has to be aligned with your values, your goals, your capacity. And so all strategies don't work, and it's really important to customize strategies to fit your lifestyle, to fit your work ethic, et cetera. So today we're gonna dive into how you can find your unique path to success and find a strategy that's gonna work to market your business that makes sense for your business, especially if you feel like you're drowning in a sea of strategy.

So I'm really excited to have you here. Michelle, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I am so excited for this conversation. It's one of my absolute favorite topics. I love, it's like my hashtag, my tagline, every strategy works, but they're not all gonna work for you. Um, so I cannot wait to dive into this.

Yeah, and I mean, I've been stalking you a little bit online and, and you know, I, I found that a lot of what you were saying really resonated with how I've been trying to help guide my clients to experiment a little bit with what's out there, but not just assume everybody has to have a social media channel.

Everybody has to have, you know, a specific kinda website. Like, there's a lot of different ways to get to your goal. So before we get into the goods, um, I would just love, you know, before we dive in, if you wanna share a little bit about your journey, uh, for the listeners and just how did you get into business coaching and marketing specifically strategy, and how long have you been doing this for?

So I'll try to keep it short and sweet. So I, my background is in operations and accounting, business development, leadership, et cetera. I worked in the corporate engineering, manufacturing space in upstate New York and then my husband and I just decided that we were, there was some life events that happened.

We lost a friend and it really kinda shook us to the core and realizing that like, life is not guaranteed. And we were like always talking about. Retirement. Retirement. My husband and I are 20 years apart, so it was like retirement was never gonna be together. Right. Oh, nice. Yeah. Like he's 20 years ahead of me and my career.

And so we were talking about it and anyway, we decided to make this massive leap and just uproot our lives, quit our jobs, sell our house, all of our belongings, and we like moved to Florida on a whim, um, to live retirement. And with that, it was like became this job search of. Going from high level, top level executive with a super, you know, impressive resume with all of these skills and knowledge and to basically glorified data entry down here.

And yeah, because it's hospitality based, it's tourism based, and that's not the world I came from. Mm-hmm. So I started just doing a ton of networking, having a ton of coffee chats. This was pre COVID, so we were, I was driving all over town. Um, you know, that turned into a pick my brain, can I pick your brain?

Can I pick your brain? That was in the days of like, let me buy you a coffee. Yeah. And um, finally somebody said to me like, your brain is worth more than coffee. You realize that. And, um, so anyways, that's kind of how the, the consulting started. It was never something that I, in the, the coaching and consulting started, it was, I don't know that I intended to go down this path, but I don't believe that it was an accident.

I think it was definitely, um, divine intervention sending me on all of those pick my brain sessions. And so, um, and then I got really heavily involved in the marketing side. It from a relationship standpoint, I got really, that was kind of the first avenue and the first, um, direction that I took was really diving into relationship marketing.

But I also had a background as a hairdresser. I was a hairdresser for years. Um, so relationship marketing is something that's like just innately in me. It's like the one thing that I felt like business owners lack a little bit of. Like just, you know, and that's the first thing you learn as a hairdresser is like you want your.

If you want your clients to come back, you've gotta build those relationships with them. And yeah, so anyways, that was kind of the path that it took and it's just continued to evolve and evolve and evolve. And so I'm headed into my ninth year, um, as a full-time, uh, business coach and consultant. Awesome.

Well, you have amazing hair as well, so that now I understand why. Um, so that's great. I mean, honestly, I love that story because I love hearing when people take a leap of faith on their big dream and just say, you know what? We wanna live a life where we feel good. Mm-hmm. We wanna be in sunshine. I also think some people are just natural coaches and have the right skillset. Like we met through a networking. Opportunity that you created.

You just said, I'm gonna host these networking calls. That sort of gregarious, like I'll create the space and, and, and guide is like an inherently, I think, in certain people and those types of personality traits make for a great coach because obviously holding space and guiding and accountability is a, is, you know, half the battle for coaching.

, So we've been talking a little bit about how overwhelming it can feel if you are an online business. If you're out there trying to show up in the online space, present yourself as a service provider, a coach, a consultant, or creating digital assets, creating digital programs.

Basically if you work in the virtual space, right? There's a lot of different strategies to market your business. So in, just in terms of, you know, there's funnels, there's launches, there's social media, there's all kinds of content strategies, there's a million different platforms, and it can feel really endless.

So I just wanna start there and talk about, you know, do you have any advice for cutting through the overwhelm and, and narrowing down what matters the most when people are getting started thinking about this? Yeah. One of the first steps that I always take clients through is this, what's working right?

And really doing and taking the time to reflect on what is actually working. Because typically in the marketing and the way we are marketed to is we are told all the things that aren't working right. Do you wish you had more of this? Do you know what I mean? And so we're constantly chasing what is not working and trying to fix it.

And so one of the best ways to kind of, I find to help with that overwhelm is just to take a pause, reflect and look back. Look back at what is actually working, look back and ask yourself like, where did my last five clients come from? Yeah. What offers sold the best? H how did it sell? How did I actually sell it?

Like, for example, one of, um, recently I have been selling off of a Google doc, and I'm sure we'll talk about this as kind of a strategy, but like, versus a landing page. And it's like there's. There's some psychology there of why a Google Doc might sell better than a landing page, et cetera, et cetera. But it's like when you just take the time to reflect on that, it's like you don't have to necessarily always fix everything.

You can take the time to double down on what is already working. And that right there will eliminate the noise because it's gonna be very clear and very obvious what is happening in your business, not what is happening in everybody else's business. Right? Because the way I got my last five clients is gonna be very different than the way you got your last five clients, right?

And you're gonna be able to really narrow down and see what strategies are really working. And so that to me is one of the easiest ways to just eliminate that overwhelm if you're feeling like, oh my gosh, I'm doing all of these things. Um, but also too, one of the conversations I've been having a lot lately with just colleagues and clients is.

A lot of unfollowing, and I don't mean that negatively, but it's like if somebody, if you're feeling like this is, if something is constantly triggering you or it's like causing you to have shiny object syndrome, or you feel like it's taking you down rabbit holes, it doesn't necessarily mean that that person or whatever, maybe that ad or whatever is, is not good, but it's not for you right now.

And it's okay to take it out of sight, out of mind. But when something is constantly in your face and you know, top of mind, top of mind, which we talk about all the time, top of mind awareness for marketing, but like top of mind awareness only works if it's relevant to you right now. But if it's not relevant, just take it off.

You know? I think one of the, it's just easiest to unfollow or hit hide, add or something like that because that those things can contribute so heavily to the noise and get people so spiraling down rabbit holes that they don't need to be going down. That is such good advice. Everyone saying it again?

Unfollow anyone. You're feeling if, if you're feeling a tug of fomo, like, I'm gonna follow and watch this ad, or click on the sales page for this coach, again for the 15th time and read all the copy on the page. But this marketing is making me feel like I'm missing something and this marketing is making me feel like if I don't do their way, I'm not gonna get my goal.

I can't tell you the number of times in my young career that I fell down that rabbit hole and I regretted it. Me too, me too. A hundred percent. It's really important to develop that sort of like gut instinct that's like, I'm, I'm feeling a, a tension here and it's not because I'm excited, it's exactly becausecause.

I feel like I'm being told I'm doing something wrong and I'm missing something. A hundred percent. Um, you're not missing anything. You're figuring out what you need. That's such a good point. So cookie cutter, right? Many solopreneurs feel like they've tried every strategy out there already, and yet they're still stuck and, and like we were just saying, you know, sometimes there'll be a program or somebody will come along and offer basically a step-by-step kind of cookie cutter strategy, but that typically doesn't actually work for everyone.

Right. So I'm wondering if you could speak to that, like why do you think cookie cutter strategies don't work and what's the danger in chasing the next big thing? Well, one of the things that I think is one of the biggest reasons why they don't work is because not everybody's brain is the same. Right.

And we were talking a little bit about this before, and I talk a lot about this, is that I have a very neurodivergent brain. Right. I think it's a, a little bit of a mix between a DHD, maybe some dyslexia in there somewhere. You know, I mean, depending on which article you read, I can check how many of the different boxes for different neuro divergencies.

Right? But that took me a long time to really understand and figure out. And what I found is that a lot of programs are designed for very convergent thinkers or neurotypical thinkers. And so there's one of that is like sometimes it's that it's never going to work just for your brain. But also too, one of the things that I find, especially when I'm working with a client or something, is that.

It's not something they are innately good at, and I don't mean that negatively, but there are some skills that we are just not good at. And it doesn't mean that it's the only way. Like, um, I saw a post the other day that really kind of triggered me was like that learning sales conversion copy is the number one skill you can learn as a business owner.

And it like it. It just fired me up so badly because it's like I, I've fallen down that trap for years and years and years. I tried to learn to be a copywriter, but I'm not a copywriter. I do my best selling through speaking. I do my best selling through building relationships. That's why I got started. I have had over a hundred coffee chats every single year for nine straight years.

That is how I do my best selling, how I build my best relationships. Learning copy is just a distraction. I write in a very distinct way. I write exactly like I speak, and so I, it's like those type of things is like certain skills are just never going to be. A top skill for you. And it's okay. And that's why these cookie cutter strategies don't always work because they require you to sometimes do things that like are just innately not in you to do.

And you know, everybody has their own way and we are all really good at different things. I mean, it's like no different than, you know, I think about it in general, like just because you get married or you have kids doesn't mean you should automatically become the best cook in the world. There are a million people out there that do not enjoy cooking, don't wanna learn it, right?

So like why is that okay in that situation, but not in a business situation? And I think that is really where these cookie cutter like. This is the only step way. No, there's a million ways. There's a million ways to build your business. And I think it really also comes back down to like, do I enjoy this?

Right? Because if you do not enjoy it and it every day it like gives you that ick or that gut feeling of like, ugh, I can't believe I have to this done to do. Yeah. You, you're never gonna stay consistent with it. That's, that's right. So I don't care if it's the best strategy in the world. If you're getting that feeling when you, when you go to do something, not only is your audience gonna feel that you're gonna feel it and eventually you're gonna give up because why we as humans do not generally put ourselves in situations that we do not like.

Yeah. And there's a lot of, there's, there's great mythology in the online space, like you. That's where I think the problem originates from is just people being like, if you don't go live on Instagram four times a week, you're never gonna get found. You're gonna get left in the dust. R disagree. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent Hard disagree.

Like, I don't actually, I've never gone, I don't think I've ever gone live on Instagram in eight years and here I am. Yeah. So and so, I mean, it, it it, we wanna reverse engineer the strategy that you're gonna choose based on your personal financial goals and a set of criteria that, that literally align with your dream lifestyle.

Not following what somebody else who has made a million dollars and is, is bragging about it. Did that isn't necessarily gonna work for everybody. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Like we are just, there's certain skills that just are not a good match for us. And I, I, I had this experience when I did, years ago I did Amy Porterfield's, DCA fabulous course if you're trying to design a course.

I love her formula for building and designing and educating. She's a really great teacher. However, her, her method for launching was it's a very specific way that she trains you to do the marketing piece and it's based on her personality.

Mm-hmm. You know, she has a certain specific thing. And I remember thinking from the very beginning, I like all of this, except I will never, I was, I'm old enough to know I've been in the business for 20 years. I was like, okay. Yeah. Everything, everything, everything. Except the way she's launching, I'll never do that.

Mm-hmm. And I, rather than force myself to put , a square peg in a round hole. I'm like, I'll do everything to the, all the way up to the finish line and then I'm gonna do the launch in a way that fits with my life. Yeah. And, and, and aligns with my values and aligns with my personality.

I'm not gonna force myself to be, become like a circus performer that I'm not. Right. So. Mm-hmm. Time. I think it's really important that we learn that about ourselves, so, okay. I thought it would be fun to play kind of a little game. I've got a list here of eight marketing strategies. These are like the most standard.

Mm-hmm. Used marketing strategies, for online businesses. And I'm gonna name each one and you tell me, Michelle, if you've tried it yourself, maybe give us your quick take on what it's great for and it, you know, if you love it, if you hate it, and maybe you know, who this type of strategy might be best suited for with zero pressure to have a fully out answer.

Yeah. No, I'm, I'm excited. It's fun. Yeah, it's gonna be fun. All right, we're gonna kick it off with number one, social media content marketing. Have you used social media content like Instagram reels, TikTok, or LinkedIn posts as a core strategy? And what's your take? Um, I'm not in Instagram reels

I did try TikTok for a little while. Um, LinkedIn I did do for quite a while, couple years, but I gotta be honest, like Facebook is my tried and true. It's, you know, it was one of the only options when I first started. So it's always worked. Facebook groups have always worked. Um, here's my take on social media.

I think social media is a wonderful visibility tool. It's a wonderful way to connect. But where I think people go wrong or where people sometimes get stuck with social media is that the people that are teaching attraction marketing through social media versus relationship marketing through social media, I look at social media as a tool to amplify conversations that I've already had.

So it's no different than you having, you know, I, it was a networking, we had a conversation after that conversation. You started following my content. My content resonated differently because we had had a conversation and that's what led to this interview. Right? So it amplifies a conversation that I had.

I do not feel as though. So I am not a content creator, and that was a huge mindset shift that I had to make. As far as that attraction piece, I think the people that truly, truly attract their ideal client through social media alone as a strategy are 100% content creators. That is part of their job, right?

Like they are content creators. They live on their stories, they create reels all the time, whether or not they have a system for it, and they can tell you, you can do it in eight hours a month or whatever. I don't care what it is, it doesn't matter. They're still content creators. Yes, they are pumping out content constantly, and I do not feel as though that is sustainable for a lot of people, especially those that are in the service industry who really have never been.

In content creation. Right. They have skill or serving client who literally has worked to do. Exactly. That's exactly it. It's like, it's like, who do you, how do you have time to be on social media? But, and I look at that and I have that conversation, it's like their job is social media, so that's why they live on it.

Your job is web design, graphic design. You're, you're building out, you're doing the tech, you're doing all the things. Your job is not social media. So making the mindset shift to allowing social media to amplify conversations that I've already had and or to start conversations. I use it to start conversations just like I did with you.

Yep. You know, with the networking or whatever, but I, I do not use it from an attraction standpoint. Okay. I loved that answer. Ding, ding, ding for the first question. Mm-hmm. You won round one. No, there's no winning. , So, okay, moving on to email marketing and newsletters. What has been your experience using email?

Do you think it's a must have or not for everyone? This is a tough one. I, I avoided email marketing for the first five years in my business and it's probably one of the biggest regrets I have. I wish I would have gotten into email marketing sooner. However, I think you have to find again what works for you.

Had I started email marketing sooner, I would not have stayed consistent with it. Um, but I now have an email newsletter that I have had going for three years straight. It's called the Sunday Morning Brew. I send it out on Sunday mornings at 6:00 AM. Um. And I love it, and I get a ton of feedback from it.

It's a wonderful relationship tool. It's, it definitely has created sales for me. I've definitely upped my email marketing game this year. I've been super creative with email marketing. In 2024 with my newsletter, one of the things I did is like, rather than have a lead magnet, my newsletter was my, my lead magnet.

But every single week I created a new free resource for them. And so that's how I really grew that newsletter and how I got people opening it because they really wanted to know what the resource was that week. Um, but I just, I think with email marketing, I really do think, I think it's a must. I, I gotta be honest, I don't think it's something that you have to do every single week.

I think you can, I think it can be very, uh, it could be monthly, it can be. It can be very casual. It doesn't have to be selling, but I think it's an incredible nurture tool, especially as people are navigating their way off of social media. Now, I had a wonderful discussion or controversial discussion about people getting annoyed when people email.

I'm like, you opted into the list. Why are you now annoyed that I'm sending you something? Yeah, that makes no sense to me. And there's always gonna be those people, but the people that stay on email marketing lists are pretty loyal. Yeah. And they do buy, and they do open. I, I agree with you. I've been running my, the core engine of my business has run on email for, since the beginning of my first business in 2007.

So I've seen crazy, crazy financial growth numbers doing one to many marketing through well taken care of. Mm-hmm. And well groomed email lists. So I've seen that work at like an agency level where we just started really doing true storytelling and emails like just gen, genuinely sharing compelling, interesting stories, leading people.

The curiosity factor when you do good storytelling and you really engage your client. And I love the, the resource, um, tip that you just dropped too for, for my listeners. I mean my, all of my clients, step one is getting you set up on email if you're not on email, like mm-hmm.

It's, it's too easy too. Inexpensive and too impactful not to have it inside your business. So I'm glad you agree about that. But I think really the trick is, like you just said, great storytelling and creating a relationship between you and the people that said, yes, I wanna hear from you. And it's not about spamming them.

And it's, it's great. It's a great way to just, you know, let people have a peek inside the real you and that adds value to the, the service that you provide when they get to work with you, they feel a connection.

And I just think there's a lot of value there. \ So email marketing is for everybody's strategy.

No matter percent what other strategy? Gotta have it. Yes, a hundred percent. Okay. Podcasting, which I'm relatively new to podcasting. \ I just published episode 88. I think you're on episode something like 330 or something, is that right? Yeah, it is like 325 or 300 0 26. Oh God.

Congratulations. That is amazing. That's goals right there. Just to keep on showing up. So I can guess how you feel about podcasting as a strategy. You probably think it's great since you've been doing it this long, but I would love to hear how you may or may not use it for lead generation. And who do you think the strategy is best for?

Is it for everyone? Should everyone have a podcast I don't think it's for everyone. I'll be honest, for the first several years, um, I had a, a very different style podcast. It was actually called something, it was a completely different name. I was releasing two episodes a week.

They were super short. Um, and it was really just a way for me to create content because like I was saying, I'm not a writer. And it was much easier for me to create, um, content by just. Turning my mic on, sharing my thoughts, and then I had a VA that was repurposing it into social content. And that was really why I started the podcast in the first place, was just a way to create content.

And it was really from that, from that standpoint, I didn't do a lot of marketing around it. I had some very loyal listeners. I actually have one listener who has never missed an episode. I'm like, how? I don't even know how you do that. Like, how have you listened to 300 something episodes? But, um, then that's so cool.

I burnt out from it big time because it wasn't gaining me anything. Right, right. It was a ton of work. I was putting a ton of money behind it. I had a va, I had somebody editing it and producing it and all the things, and so it was an expense with no return. And so I put it on pause. I ended up rebranding it and I've really come back with a, a much better strategy.

And that strategy has, has grown and evolved. Um, even more so, and I would say most recently now, it's definitely starting to convert. It's, it's a massive nurture tool. Um, I use it, especially if I have a prospect, I always tell them, go listen to my podcast. Like, you're either gonna love me or hate me because of my, my opinions, right?

Like, you're either gonna love my approach to business growth and strategy, or you're gonna not, you're just not gonna resonate with it. So I do use it from that perspective, but from an overall arching. Podcast strategy, is it for everyone? No. Podcasting is a ton of work. Yeah, I'm not. You know, even though you can turn your mic on and it's easy and you can upload it and you don't have to edit them much anymore.

I don't even hardly edit my episodes at all. Um, I use a little bit of AI in my recording and it cuts out the ums and the fluff and that's about it. Um, but. The thing about it is, is podcasts don't naturally grow on their own. Number one, you have to market them. Yeah. You have to be letting people know about it.

And so it's one more thing that you have to promote. And so if promotion and marketing and all of that is really not what you wanna do, and so I don't think it's really good. Um, the other thing with podcasting is that it requires consistency. Yeah. And if consistency is not your strong suit and you don't like that pressure of having to constantly create content to put out on a podcast because your listeners expect it weekly, um, I mean, you can do seasons and different things, but I will say like when seasons I find with the podcast I listen to that are seasonal.

I don't always go back to 'em because again, out of sight outta mind, they take a break. You, you lose, you kind of move on to a different favorite type of thing. So I don't think podcasting is for everyone. I think it's a very powerful tool. My biggest, um, riff with podcasting is that you never know who's listening.

That's what drives me absolutely crazy about podcasting. It's like, yeah, that's a good point. I've had people say to me like, oh, Michelle, I listen. I love your podcast. It's like, holy crap, I don't even know who you are. How did you even find it? Right? Like, there's very little data you can get, like listener information.

You can tell where they're coming in from, but you really don't, unless they move from your podcast to your email list, which I think takes a while sometimes. Yeah. Um, you don't really know where they're coming from. So that's, you know, and if that's important to you, um, that can be, that can be kind of difficult.

Yeah. And I would just add, that's all. I agree with everything you just said. Being in, you know, we're, I'm at episode 88 or 89. And I've been consistent. I'm really proud of myself. Um, it is easier for me than publishing a blog or putting out a video show. I agree with you. Just flipping the mic on, I have a background in editing, so the editing is easy, but that's, that's what makes this doable for me, is that I have the skills and the, there wasn't a lot of barrier between me and like my husband and I are both audio, you know, song producers and so we have a lot of technical audio background.

So it was just like, oh yeah, a podcast is just, it's like, it opened a channel to a broadcast system and share your knowledge, but the consistency, the showing up week after week, the creating compelling content, really thinking ahead about what's gonna really support the people that you, that you wanna speak to.

It's, it is a lot of work. Mm-hmm. So I agree with you. It's not, it's not necessarily for everyone. Um, and it's a long term strategy just to put that out there too. Very much so too. Like, it's a slow, slow, slow game. Like, you know, I think the podcast starts to really pay off after you've been doing it for a year plus.

Yeah. So, okay, let's move on to SEO and blogging, which I love this strategy very much. Um, I think I'd love to hear your take. Have you ever really leaned on SEO to drive traffic and, and do you have a blog and what do you think is the reality behind this strategy? Like, who is it best for? I have not leaned into SEO and blogging, and again, I definitely regret that.

I definitely wish that I had done it. I do have a blog now, it's really just repurposed podcast episodes, but they are SEO kind of driven or optimized in a sense. I don't know that it's driving traffic yet. Um, I think with that, you know, you've gotta add some type of search. So Pinterest is a, is a great feature if you're going to have a blog.

I do have a couple clients that really leaned heavily into SEO and Pinterest marketing and all of that with their blogging. And I, and it's done very well for them. It's not something that I have, I have gotten into, but I also think, again. It requires a lot of research. Yes, it requires, I mean, it can be very, very helpful, but again, if you're just speaking on generalized topics of how to grow your business, the chances of you getting found on Google are very, very slim.

Um, I think you have to be very specific. You have to really know how to answer those questions that Google is looking for or wherever. Um, I think now too with the advanced ai and as AI is coming into the market, I know that, um, I think they're calling it GEO or whatever, where basically chat GPT is starting to recommend people.

Yes. I think there's some really powerful strategies for that, and I do think it is going to be very beneficial to lean into that. Um, that is something I am really learning and I would probably say that's probably the avenue I would go is to be more like, you know, to try and get found on AI or through AI search versus, um, Google, but.

Yeah, I think, I think it's a great strategy, but again, it comes back to consistency. It comes back to whether or not you're a good writer. Um, do you wanna pay for a writer? Do you want a ghost writer? You know, do you have a ghost writer? Do you wanna do it? Do you know how to do the keyword research? And what's your consistency?

Again, blogging thrives on consistency, so it's not for everybody, I don't think it's for everybody. And again, it's also a very long-term strategy. I agree. I think, actually, anyone listening that's curious to lean into this, this strategy just a tiny bit more, if you go back to episode 55 of this podcast, I interviewed Lena Christine, who her entire business is helping to rewrite people's websites just loaded with the right key words for their industry, their niche.

And one of the things that she says in that episode, is the more niche your strategy and topic and, and content is, the more likely it's going to be found. So if your keywords are, you know, yoga practices for stress reduction, that's pretty broad.

But if you say, intermediate yoga class for people healing from back pain in St. Augustine, Florida. Now we're gonna come up on the first page because there's so many specific details. So I think that we should all be paying attention to keyword searches and doing our best to in, include them in, in any kind of content you put out there.

But it is a strategy that requires a lot of research. Yeah. I've had a couple clients that are, have very local niche businesses, like a dog behaviorist and a sewing, you know, a sewing studio. And SEO has been their primary driver of traffic. But again, very niche, very location specific. So again, like to your point, I think it, it really depends on your business.

Let's move on to something I know you shine at, which is networking, which is my favorite current strategy, networking and collaborations. So I know you use networking and collaborations to grow your business. Um, that's how we met. Do you wanna just talk a little bit about those forum four chats and, and would you recommend this as a core strategy like to everyone or who do you think it's for?

Networking, I think is for every single person in business, like hands down. Um, it's always my go-to. Even if you're an introvert, even if you're not a people person, you can get on one call a month or have, you know, and really get to know people. I think networking will never go out of style. Networking will never not be a good strategy.

You can learn more, so much more about a person in a 15 minute conversation than you can in months of following them on social media and that relationship and people being able to get a chance of your vibe and just understanding. And because now we have Zoom and you're not having to travel. I mean, I, I firmly believe in in-person networking as well.

I love in-person. It's just so different than even virtual. But I mean, zoom has changed the game for this and. Yeah, I think networking is, is hands down the be all, end all strategy. I think it goes in waves. I think there are seasons where people get burnt out by it for sure. But there you also have to understand like people are burnt out by social media right now, so networking is working very well and I think, yeah, you know, there are different.

Seasons where certain things work, but I will never stop networking. Yeah. So the four m four chats I created, um, I did this again, it was during COVID. It was like everybody and their brother was online. It was like, let's just capitalize and maximize our time. And so I brought them back in 2025 because I could see that people were starting to kind of burn out on social.

People were struggling, people were wanting, you know, business wasn't converting the same. And, and so it's like we gotta start having some more conversations. We gotta start connecting with humans again. And so the forum four chats were kind of just a place to like, let's just connect as human beings and it's me and you and two other people, or three other people depending.

Um, so there's either me plus four or me plus three. And you know, it's just a way for you to get to know three or four other people in an hour time. Um, I love speed networking. I host my own networking group. I have for years. I've hosted my own networking groups. Um, I just think it's currently, I think it's wonderful.

Could listeners join any of those, uh, opportunities? The four on four chats are open to anybody, and I'm absolutely, you know, happy to share the link to that. My, my other networking group is part of that paid community that I created that small community, which is another networking Yeah. Strategy that I feel very strongly about.

I created a community just because I felt like people were really craving and missing that again, but it all comes back to networking and relationship marketing, and I a hundred percent could speak on it for days and days. And I would say honestly probably 90% of my business has come from networking.

Over eight years. Yeah. Okay. We have to, I'll have to have you come back on just to talk about networking. 'cause I actually agree with you, um, from the call that I did with you. Not only did I meet you, which resulted in this conversation, uh, I've had follow up calls with two of those other women where we were just talking about how we can send each other clients.

Absolutely. Like literally we had a great connection. We just liked each other. We met up afterwards to go a little deeper and now it's like, great, now I know you, and when I know somebody that needs a fractional CEO or whatever, I'm gonna send them your way. And so I really appreciate that someone do that.

Mm-hmm. Um, okay, moving on. Paid ads, Facebook, Instagram, Google and Pinterest ads. What's your honest take on paid ads? Do you use it? Do you think it's a game changer or just a waste of people's money? I think it can be a waste of people's money if you don't know what you're doing with it. Yeah. I think if you're gonna invest into paid ads, you gotta pay an expert I or try to learn it.

But again, this is one of those things where it's like I try to learn ads myself. It's like, I'm not gonna, I don't wanna learn this. I don't have the skills to learn this. Could I learn it? Yes. But it's not my only job and I have so many other things to do. But I think there are a lot of fun strategies. I actually have a client who's an ad strategist and she's been kind of sharing some different ideas and thoughts and just in our conversations that I would've never thought about.

And so I think there are a lot of creative ways to use ads for visibility and search. Um, or just to get found and to increase your leads and all of the things. But one of the things that I think is most important to remember with ads is that I don't care what people say when it says that. When they say, you can go in with a small ad budget, you can't, like in order for ads.

To really work to convert clients now. Yes. Um, like I said, I have a client who is an AD strategist and she has this kind of like $1 a day strategy, but it's really just a top of mind funnel type strategy. It's just, it's, it's really more just to put your content in front of more people. It's not, um, it's not a lead ad, it's not anything.

It's really just a way to get your content in front of more eyeballs. So you can do something like that. But if you're truly looking for conversion in leads, that is a long-term strategy that requires an expert and a decent budget. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. I agree a hundred percent. I have experienced that firsthand for, I've been running ads for years.

The visibility ads are great to run at a very low volume, cost per lip, per day or whatever, like one to $5 a day just to have, just to bubble yourself up in the algorithm and be seen. Mm-hmm. It's really great for. People viewing your video and then the data collected there is like, oh, now that person is aware of you.

So it tells the system there's an awareness, so then you can retarget those people with paid ads for things that you wanna convert. Come to my webinar, come to my free class, download my free thing, get on my list, all that stuff. I think ads work really great for that kind of strategy of visibility and like free or low ticket interactions.

Once you get to sales conversions, you need a budget. You need a, a large budget to run enough data to get it. It's just the way it is. It's true. You, you really are gonna spend money and anyone that tells you it's not gonna cost a lot of money is not telling the truth. I agree. I, yeah, I, and, and also too, you know what I mean?

You've gotta look at your, your return on ad spend too, of where you're at. And I think you can, you know, there's people that are making, I follow, um, somebody, he's an ad strategist and he talks about how like he made $7,000 off of a launch or something with his ads, but between his team himself. And granted he's an ads manager, so he wasn't paying his team.

Right. Or like he wasn't paying himself. Um, and his adbu, I mean, I think it was like over $3,000. Yeah. So that's more than 50% of their launch went into ads. So. You gotta keep a lot of that in mind. Yeah. So ads do really work, but they Absolutely, I agree with Michelle, if you're gonna do it and you don't know what you're doing, the difference between paying an expert and learning it, having learned it, I know.

Actually I'm pretty good at ads now. It took me years. Years of, of losing a lot of money. Like I threw a lot of money away, getting good at ads. Mm-hmm. Yes. So, okay. So couple more really quickly. We've got challenges, workshops or webinars, and. Really the last category is just overall funnels and automation, but let's talk about challenges, workshops, or webinars.

Like what about live workshops? Do you ever do them, do you like them? Do they create too much pressure? These like workshops or like these big webinars where you're trying to get lots and lots of people there. Do you do that strategy? I love challenges and workshops. I really do. I think I call 'em conversion events.

I think that they work very, very well because they give people, especially in the economy we're living in right now, where we are very much in a trust or like, I, I'm calling it kind of like an experiential economy where people wanna kind of experience you before they, they give you bigger dollars. Yeah.

So I think that that is a wonderful opportunity. And also too, it really, um. It segments your list, right? Like they come to the challenge and they're a great fit and you know exactly who's your ideal client or you, they come to the challenge and it's very obvious who is not gonna be a right fit, right? So it's a really great way to kind of, um, go through and see your leads and really let them to self-identify who is a lead and not.

Um, what I don't love about challenges and webinars and workshops and all of these things is the big live launch method. Um, the, like the webinar with the live launch that only leads to a program that only opens once a cor once a year or half a year or whatever it is. Like that amount of stress to be in launch mode for most people is so dysregulating to the emotional nervous, like the nervous system.

The emotional stress of all that. Like I do not like that. Um, so I decided I was, I was not gonna be in launch mode anymore. Like I switched my program to Evergreen. Now I do have like little pop-up offers, like at the end of the year I run a biz planning event. That's technically a launch. It's a three day challenge.

I will have to launch it, but it's kind, it's very, it's, it's not like a big launch to my next big program, right? Like it's more just there is like. Hey, I'm, I'm hosting this workshop this month, or I'm hosting this challenge this month. I think they're wonderful. I think they're wonderful. I actually just told a client yesterday that I think she needs to be doing more of them because she's got kind of a fairly new audience that doesn't, has never really experienced her before.

And I think it's a great way for people to get a feel for who you are and learn what you do and bring and what you bring to the table and your unique perspective and point of view. So I do think that they work, but you also have to just know your energy behind it, right? You have to have the capacity to promote it.

You have to have the capacity to market it, and also, it's only as good as the next step. Right, like drawing people into a workshop or a challenge is a conversion event with no clear next step for them is losing leads. You're just, you know, unless you know, unless your entire strategy is to make your money off these small events and make your 20 or $27 or $97, whatever your event is, and that's your whole entire strategy.

But for the most part, those smaller, those smaller things usually lead to a bigger offer. And if you don't have that next step clearly defined and ready and very easy for your audience to take, then they will flop. They will flop. Yeah. Well said. I agree with you. That is, I love doing the, I think right now the climate is extra ripe for these smaller activations.

Mm-hmm. A three day challenge, a two hour workshop, a live event, a i I do webinars is basically a huge part of my personal strategy. I just love to teach. I love, love to teach. I love to connect with people. I love to answer their questions. If they wanna work with me, they will know if they can afford it.

Right. Then they will buy. If they can't, they will wait. It's, I'm, mm-hmm. There's zero pressure. My door is open when it can be, like, I have a certain capacity. If I'm capped, I'm not even talking about it because I'm not, I'm, I'll say I run a one-on-one program, but right now I don't have any spots open.

I'll open them again in three months like that. It just, that's where it's at. Right. So, but I also just moved my regular coaching group to basically an evergreen model this past, uh, summer. So it's relatively new that we're doing, I'm doing it that way, but it's just exactly what you said. I, I've done so many large launches that I felt like, I'm like, this cannot be, this cannot be the way.

Like, no, it's not for me. I don't, it's, it's, I think it's an antiquated method that really is not a good match for many people, unless you have a team and a huge budget. It is, it's. I like what you said, it's dysregulating to the nervous system. Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. I was talking to somebody yesterday and she was saying that she's like feeling imposter syndrome and she's feeling like they, and it's because she's mid-launch and it's not going exactly the way she wants mid-launch, right?

Like because the launch period and people buy it the last second, and so most people give up too soon because they don't get the results in the middle. It does create all of these feelings of like, maybe this isn't what people want. It's just there's a lot that goes into it and there's so much emotional on it that you have to have a really thick skin to get through that.

You really good? Yes. Yeah, I agree. I've done so many launches where I was just like, what am I doing? Like that mid? Mm-hmm. That messy middle is a nightmare. And also I'm the buyer who like meets you and is like, love her, gonna work with her. I'm buying. And then literally at 1159, like on the day, the countdown tower, I'm like 60 seconds to get my credit card in there.

Yes. I don't know why I, maybe it's, I don't know why, but I wait till the last second. Yeah, I don't know. Well that's, there's, that's probably a little bit of a DH, adhd. There's like a dopamine there. There's gotta so many hit there of like that last minute, that last minute dopamine hit. It's wild. I do that.

Okay. Funnels and automations. I mean, I just feel like this is an obvious one, but you know, the quote funnel, like the definition of funnel, let's just talk about that quickly just so everyone's on the same page. All that. That really means like some of these things that we've been discussing today are the top of your funnel.

They're funnels. Yeah. Some of the things we've been discussing today are the core engine and bottom of your funnel. Like some things are the middle of your funnel, right? So like, I think the question of do we need a funnel is not a question. Of course you do. You need a way to connect with new people. You need a way to nurture your people and you need a way to invite and lead people to a sale.

So that's the funnel, right? Yeah. So automation I think is more the question like, you know. I don't really think that we should be questioning this either. We, I think everyone, if you wanna scale needs automations 'cause it just buys you back time. But I guess the question then is like, how deeply do you lean into funnels, like evergreen funnels or how much automation do you think is necessary and, and kind of what's the balancing act for a solopreneur?

Because a lot of my clients feel overwhelmed by the tech. Mm-hmm. And I help, I actually, um, I think of myself more as a technical marketing strategist and then a business coach. So I really help navigate the tech piece, like choosing the platforms hard, choosing the, how do we connect all these underground tunnels in a way that when you have to, when you, there's a glitch in the matrix, you can find it, right?

Mm-hmm. We don't wanna build a, a system where you're then like, oh, now I have to go pay somebody a hundred dollars an hour when it doesn't work. Right? So simplifying is kind of my game here, but yes, I do think we need funnels and automations, but I'd love to hear your take on it. Yeah. I think, again, funnels and automations, I think.

In the beginning, they can be, they can feel very overwhelming. And if you've not done, if you haven't networked and you don't have an audience and you don't really, you know, I think it can be a lot of work and a lot of effort put into it for not a lot of return. Just because, again, just because you create it doesn't mean people know that it exists, right?

It's not a build it and they will come. You still have to do all of the things to draw people into the funnel. So your automation is only as good as the people coming into it is that first step. So it's, I think it's wonderful as long as you have all of the pieces, like you said, like, do you have your top of funnel?

Do you have your mid funnel? Do you have your conversion? Because without all of those things and all of those pieces, automation's only gonna get you so far. Tech can only take you so far. I think a lot of people put. A lot of onus and a lot of pressure on their tech to do the selling. And the tech is not gonna do the selling.

The tech is not gonna draw, say a lot of people in the people to you, right? Like the tech is going to make it easier for people to move through your funnel. And I do firmly believe in making sure that everybody always knows what their next step is. But technology is not going to just magically create sales.

I, I can thank you for saying it so clearly. Your funnel, your tech does not sell for you. You sell for you your funnel. Even if your words are the most magnetic and amazing words in the world, there's an energy behind it that is based on your lived experience and your vibrational energy, and that's infused into all of these technical pieces.

All of these marketing pieces, the marketing pieces themselves, are just tools, and there's so many different ways you can align those tools. But at the end of the day, what is your offer? Does it get results? And are you aligned with the right people are. And, and I think that, like you said earlier, the best way to do that is to build actual relationships with real people.

Mm-hmm. And the easiest way to do that is just to be in networking spaces. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then you can move them very easily through your funnel, right? It's like, Hey, I've got this. It might be of great value to you. Try it, check it out. You know, and then they're there. They're in your funnel.

You know exactly where they're at. You know exactly how to move them through the next step. Like, I just think that there's so much power in it, but you still have to draw people to it. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a good point, because people, I, I think you see a lot of, especially like these ads on the internet that are like, you know, skip the this and this.

Skip the big launch, skip to that. They'll like, try to basically say all the things that they know you don't want, and then say the, the only thing you need is this one funnel, or the only thing that you need is this one automation. And. The red flag for me is always exactly what you just said, which is, yeah, but I'm still gonna have to, I still need a way to get people to know about that.

Exactly. There's still the entire marketing piece that has to be done. Mm-hmm. Exactly, exactly. So it's easy to get caught up in these, like quick fix, you know, oh, if I, you know, funnels that are these dream scenarios, but they don't necessarily work for everybody. No, no, they don't. They don't. And I, I think it can be a big expense for somebody, especially in the beginning and one that isn't always necessary until you really truly have your buyer journey laid out and figured out and it's evolved.

So helpful. Thank you so much for going through all of those strategies with me. Yeah, that makes fun. I guess the, the, the sort of follow up question to all of this is just, okay, so we've just talked about eight different strategies and we've talked about, you know, why cookie cutter doesn't work and, and.

The goal is to clear up the overwhelm, right by, by knowing there's a million different things. There's all these great ads and, and super intense marketing out there, making you think one thing or the other thing is the thing you have to be doing. So how can a business owner start to recognize which strategies actually aligned with their strengths, their values, and their lifestyle, or whether they're just forcing themselves because it worked for somebody else?

Like, what are some green flags? What, what are, what are little things we can pick up on and say, you know what, this is feeling like the right thing for me. I think the biggest green flag is like that internal knowing and excitement, right? Like if, when I see networking calls on my calendar, I never get a pit in my stomach, right?

Like, I'm like, oh, let me see who, who am I talking to today? Like, Ooh, this is gonna be fun, right? Like, I always get excited about it, right? Like when I release a podcast episode, I always get excited about it, right? And I think that's the thing is like if there's things on your list that are just like, oh, I just do not wanna do that.

So like blogging was one of those things for me. I just didn't wanna do it. It was like one of those like, Hey, I need your blog. My BA was forever asking me like, I need your blog. And I'm like, I finally said to her, I'm like, I'm never gonna do it. I'm never gonna get it to you. I'm never going to do it. I know I hired you for this, but I'm never doing, I'm gonna, I'm never gonna do it.

You know what I mean? And so, you know, we had to come up with a strategy around it because I was like, I, I see the value in it, but I'm never gonna do it. So we ended up, you know, creating like a custom GPT and like creating this whole big process for it. But it's like, there are certain things, like if you're just never gonna do it, like just freaking admit that you're never gonna do it.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I think that's the biggest thing with the cookie cutter is like if you're, if there is something that is continuing to fall on your to-do list over and over and over and it continues to give you that gut feeling of like, ugh, then you just have to look at it and say like.

Is this strategy really for me, you know, because again, look at all the, we only touched on eight. There's still a bunch more out there. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like there's speaking, there's podcast guesting, there's so many other things that you can still do that do light you up. But I think at the end of the day, they are all work, right?

And so they all require time, they all require effort. None of them are easier. Um, I've have, I have this client all the time, or this conversation all the time of like, I just want it to be easier. And it's like, it never, there are seasons where it will start to flow with ease. You will start to feel ease in what you are doing and what you are creating.

But it's never exactly easy, I think is the thing. And they all require. Work. There are certain days, like as your strategy grows with social media or as you start networking. Yeah. The more I network, the less I have to be on social media because I'm having so many amazing conversations. But in the seasons where I'm slow on networking, I've gotta up my social media game, right?

So I think you just have to know where to where you're putting your time and effort, and also understanding that your business is going to have those seasons and what, what might've worked in one season for your life or your business may not work again next season. And so being willing to kind of adapt and pivot, I think is very helpful too.

Yeah, that's such good advice. Yeah. Like when I lived in New York City and I was constantly in spaces where I was meeting and networking with people, you know, it's like sparks are flying, people are making deals. There's so much energy, there's so much money, there's so much.

Opportunity, right? Mm-hmm. Now I live in the middle of the wilderness where it's like a 45 minute drive to get eggs. And I have to do things virtually. I have so much more, online scaffolding around my business than I did when I lived in New York, where everything happened on the street, like business happens on the street in New York City.

Mm-hmm. So literally could walk down the street, meet a stranger, and do a business deal in New York City. Mm-hmm. Here. Mm-hmm. Where I am now and in this season of life that I'm in, I take care of a very sick parent. It's just I have limited capacity, limited time. I need robust automations to build my list for me, I need, the nurturing to be done by email sequences.

I just, that buys me back the time I can be with my family and it eliminates emergency thing. So I have a lot of control over when I can be available. Because I need that extra space and time to be available for something that I, I can't control. Right. My mother's health. Right. So it's interesting, like, and I love that you just said that because I do think the right strategy for any one person is, has got to be built around the lifestyle that makes you feel happy.

Because if you don't feel happy doing it, like Michelle has already said, multiple times you will stop. And consistency is what makes your business actually grow and scale. It's all gonna be work. They're all all gonna be work. They all going to work. Like every strategy works.

They work for somebody. Mm-hmm. They might not work for you. Yeah. And where you show up confidently, right? So I, I was having a, a conversation yesterday with a client who she said, people keep telling me that I, I'm lacking confidence. She goes, and I'm not, I'm not lacking confidence.

And I'm like, but you are, because you're continuing to put yourself in spaces that you are not confident in. You're networking and marketing in a way that you are not confident in. You are confident when you are facilitating. So if that is what, is what brings out your confidence, then do more facilitation, teaching, workshops, all of that, because that is what's gonna show you in your best light.

But if social media is not confident, it is very obvious in the words that you're putting on that, on that screen, that that's not where you best shine. And I. That was like when video first came out, everybody was like, get on video. Get on video. If you're gonna stumble over your words on video, then that is not gonna be the best strategy because it's not gonna show your confidence.

It's not gonna show and exude this. Like, I know who I am, I know what I'm doing. It's gonna make you question, it's gonna make your audience question and, but if you can write with such power, then continue to write. And I think everybody has different areas that they show up confidently in. And confidence sells.

Confidence sells a hundred percent. Yeah. Amazing advice. It's so true. It really is. So, okay, I wanna ask you, um, where we can find you online so we can stalk you and join your programs and network with you. Yeah, so I am on Threads primarily. I've been hanging out on threads mostly. Um, I am on all the social platforms, so you can find me on all of them.

It's either Michelle De or Michelle Denne Consulting. We'll make sure the links are in the show notes. Um, and then, yeah, if you wanna jump on one of my four on four chats, I will, those are not on my website. I, I keep those. But I will definitely drop the link for you guys. I really encourage all of you to, you know, the listeners book a chat, have a conversation, come network, meet some new people.

Um, tap into my network. I network, especially if you're an introvert. Like I do all the work. I'm networking out there. I'm having the coffee chats and bringing the people together from multiple different areas. So, you know, tap into that. I think it's a wonderful opportunity. And then, um, yeah, my dms are always open.

If there's any further conversation or you wanna just, you know, ask me a question, please do not be afraid to send me a dm. Amazing. Thank you so much. , Any last word of advice for somebody who is seeking the right strategy to feel like they're on track? I think the only last little piece of advice I will give is that you don't need permission to quit a strategy that's not working right.

I think so many people wait for somebody to give them the permission to stop doing something, and you do not need permission. The permission you need is from yourself. If you know it is not working and it is not lighting you up and it is not bringing results, you do not need somebody else to tell you that.

Trust you inner knowing, trust your gut, trust your intuition, and be willing to just make that choice on your own because you have that power. You're an entrepreneur, you got into this to make those decisions, and so you get, you get to put your CEO hat on and make that decision.

You don't need somebody to make that decision for you. That is sage advice. I wish that I had that advice like 10 years younger. Me would wait out these misaligned strategies and decisions that I'd made just to kind of say I stuck with it and to prove to myself that I had the tenacity to sit through the discomfort and wait for the result to come, when I knew in my gut that it was misaligned.

So I love that piece of advice. What a gold nugget. Michelle. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this with me. I'm grateful to have you here today. Um, for all the listeners out there, go to michelle de denial consulting.com? Correct. Yes. Great. That will be, that link will be in my show notes.

Reach out to Michelle, hit her up in the dms, do one of the four on four chats. They're amazing. It's, she leads the whole thing. Literally. All you have to do is show up, ready to meet amazing other people. Yeah, and share what you do and and connect. So thanks for listening today, you guys, as always.

I'll see you next week, and until then, may you be vibrant.