#62 - Energy Healing for Business Success: Boundary Mastery with Michelle Poverman

In this episode of 'Mindset to Market' we’re discussing the B word - Boundaries.

If you ever felt like people-pleasing, a level of perfectionism, or the inability to set clear boundaries are stopping you from taking the next big step - OR perhaps just causing you a lot of discomfort…. My guest today, Michelle Poverman, is going to help you understand why - and also how you can heal that in your life. 

She’s a licensed psychotherapist energy healer, and intuitive coach, and the host of Into the Work, a podcast to support the modern empath - 

Listen in to learn :

 🔹 What it really means to be an empath (like the science-y part)

 🔹 The hidden ways a lack of boundaries manifests in your business

 🔹 How to rewire your thinking for success and resilience

If you've ever struggled to set clear boundaries then Stick around, because Michelle shares some powerful insights powerful insights on how empaths and people pleasers can heal emotional blocks and set effective boundaries to thrive in their personal and professional lives. that could change the way you approach success. 

Michelle is hosting a very special FREE master class:

The Self Sabatoge Trap, 4 Ways to Achieve More Success with Soul-Loving Boundaries. Tuesday, March 18th at 7 pm ET 

Go register for her class now so at very least you can get the replay - spoiler she’s going to do an actual energy activation during the class - so you don’t want to miss that opportunity. 

Our discussion delves into recognizing empathy as a superpower, handling high-achieving codependency, and incorporating energy healing into daily practices. 

Michelle also introduces her 12-week course, 'Modern Empaths Boundary Mastery,' aimed at providing tools and strategies to establish and maintain healthy boundaries. 

Register for Michelle's free masterclass, 'The Self-Sabotage Trap,' to learn more about actionable steps towards achieving balance and success.

Listen to Into the Work: Therapy for Healers and Seekers

Mindset to Market is a Luminous Creative Production. If you'd like to learn more about our business coaching program and group coaching container, please visit us online at DeborahcSmith.com.

Mindset to Market is produced by Deborah C. Smith and designed to inspire and support big-hearted creatives in finding their own unique path, building a sustainable business, and creating financial, spiritual, mental wellness and abundance.

🎉 Join the Mindset to Market Coaching Mastermind ​Learn More
💕 Visit Deborah online at DeborahCSmith.com
💕 Follow on the 'Gram. @mindset2marketpod

Transcript

[00:00:00] Okay, so my guest today on Mindset to Market is Michelle Pauverman, Michelle's a psychotherapist, she's also an energy healer and an intuitive coach, and she really helps empaths, right, people pleasers, and intuitively driven women and men. heal emotional blocks to their own personal power so that they can set boundaries, the kind that allow them to thrive.

And this is such a personal topic for me. Because I am a very porous empath.

, I would say recovering from the parts of it that have caused me to, you know, kind of get knocked around in the wind.

But I've learned that empathy is actually a superpower. And so I'm really excited to talk with Michelle today about how empathy can show up as both a strength and also a weakness in your business practice. And ladies, listeners, we are going to talk about setting boundaries and what that means and how that can [00:01:00] impact your success in your business.

So without further ado, Michelle, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. So happy to be here. And transparently also to listeners, Michelle and I are peers and colleagues and also friends. I was a guest on her podcast I'll drop a link to that in the show notes if you're interested in hearing me get interviewed by Michelle but Michelle, it's amazing to have you on the on the show.

I've been wanting to interview you ever since I met you. I'm a listener of your podcast and I literally feel like I'm sitting on your couch and getting \ treated like I'm one of your. Clients, so thank you. Thanks for all the free therapy. You're welcome. Into the Work is amazing, if you guys, the link is in the show notes, so go listen to Michelle's podcast.

But, I want to just start from the beginning. Michelle, take us back for a minute. What led you to pursue a career in psychotherapy? Well, that would take me back to 8th grade superlative, and in 8th [00:02:00] grade, I was voted most likely to be a therapist in a crisis center. Literally, that was on, that was in the book.

The yearbook and I actually found it when I was moving to Colorado one year and I was digging out my parents, you know, my parents house, my old, my old stuff and I found my old yearbook and I, I didn't remember that, right? I found this eighth grade yearbook, dusted it off, opened it up and saw that and I was like, yeah, that's right.

So yeah, I mean, I'm just, I was born a psychotherapist. I think a lot of us psychotherapists are born psychotherapists. We're just very, um, by nature. It's just kind of like who I am and I get to go out in the world and be who I am, which is, you know, Not something a lot of us feel we can do. And so I do feel so grateful because I do feel like I'm going out in the world and being me.

And that is quite an amazing thing. So anybody listening who feels like they really would like to go out in the world and do them, I highly recommend it. It's really awesome. Yeah, cheers to that. I mean, to me, the qualities are like curious, [00:03:00] right? Curious about human nature and caring. You have to care about other humans well being so much to make a career out of listening and helping guide people to level up.

It's so wild. It's about really, yes, it's about being, I think it's just about the way you think. I think, first of all, let's just dive into this like as I said. Talk about myself here is like being an empath also means being a healer. And so we're going to, we're also going to dismantle your beliefs a little bit, which I think is going to be really helpful for you.

Cause when anybody introduces themselves as like a recovered empath, I'm like, Oh, they have it wrong. Yes, though, because. We, but that's why a lot of people are like, I don't want to be an empath because being an empath means that I'm boundary list that I'm weak, that I am a pushover, that I'm a mess, that I'm overwhelmed all the time.

And I don't want to be someone who can't walk in the mall without feeling overwhelmed. Right. But. What we have to recognize is that being an empath, as you said, is a superpower, right? [00:04:00] Yes. So that you're recovering from being a people pleaser, you're recovering from not having boundaries, you're recovering from over giving, over extending and over accommodating, that's the recovery process.

But that doesn't necessarily Come with being an empath. It's just that being an empath means that one, you are literally energetically wired differently. And what's really cool is, and I won't spend too much time because I know we're going to get back to, um, what we're talking about here, but being an empath means that, and we know this now in science, that your bio energetic field, which is around you is different than everybody else's.

Okay. So everybody else has this surface to their field. So when we measure it with machines and we can see the field, we see with empaths that it's porous, that it literally is porous. And so we literally, and we have these mirror neurons in our brain, which also are working part of how we are sensing and feeling other people.

So by definition, what an empath is, [00:05:00] is somebody who literally feels other people's emotions. feel subtle energies, experiences, things that come through the field that don't for other people. And we're the reason why you're an empath. The reason why I'm an empath reason why every person who's listening is like, I think I could be an empath is because we really chose to come down here and be healers.

And that can be a healer in marketing. That can be a healer at the grocery store. It doesn't matter, but as an empath, you really are here to heal. So some of us, yes, are going to become psychotherapists by nature, and some of us are going to be space holders while we're helping people with their strategy, right?

Like yourself. Yeah. Right. I was going to say, some people will spend a decade and a half making juices for people. Yes. Yes. And so even then you are being a little healer in the world, you'd be like, how can I make you better? How can I help you? How? And you know, the sensitivity piece. It's what, why we're going to get so much into boundaries today in business is [00:06:00] that sensitivity that we're having because our fields are different because energetically we're different.

And we sense and feel so much between the lines. We send some feel if you don't like what I'm saying, I'm immediately picking it up and it doesn't matter that we're online, like I can sense it and Oh, I got to take, I got to pivot. I got to change what I'm saying. We send some feel people so much, right? We feel them.

It's not the same as empathy. So when other people who have regular fields and they're not empaths and they're in the world, they can have empathy, which means I can experience, I can imagine what it's like to be you by putting myself in your shoes. But I remain myself in that process. Empaths literally experience the emotion, like they feel it in themselves.

Like if you're really anxious and we're hanging out like, God, why am I so anxious? Oh, it's not mine. And that's one of the biggest gifts we can learn as an empath. And that's literally because of a porous Yeah. So porous energy field, [00:07:00] you're wiring to be an empath. I mean, this is what my pea sized brain knows, right?

Cause we only have a little pea sized brain compared to what's possible in the universe, right? So, but yes, we have differences. So, but it doesn't, so we can, we can literally empath. Sometimes they get to my age, right? Like I'm, I'm the ripe old age of 50 this, this month. And I know, right? Oh my gosh. Um, but you know, So we can get to this point and be so burnt out that we can have, we can have very little empathy.

I know empaths that are just so up to their eyeballs in, you know, feeling overwhelmed by everybody that they're burnt out and they have very little empathy. Do you know what I'm saying? A hundred percent. And I think I've been there too. Like I've, I've shared a little bit about the journey with my becoming a caretaker for my adult mom and how that has been.

extended from a stroke and an incident that was a crisis and now it's been four years and we're still going and we're still every single day, phone calls and caretaking and \ and it does, it does actually start to burn you out, especially [00:08:00] if you feel the depths of what it must be like to be in their situation and you cannot separate yourself from it, like, I often feel like even if my business were to crumble to pieces, , I have to be there for her.

 And you know what? I wouldn't do, I wouldn't do it differently if I could go back and do it again.

 So, , do you think that if somebody is naturally got this porous, exterior layer of energy, it then predicates a certain type of behavior that can either be very good or very bad. So when you say it predicates this behavior that's very good or very bad, what kind of behavior are you talking about?

Like, um, well, I'm thinking specifically about boundaries and people. I think like, that's the main two that come to mind is yes, I've noticed in my life, , people pleasing has really held me back in many ways 

you know, when you put everyone before yourself, you're left with very little to work with. And I think at some [00:09:00] point it's at a detriment that you, that, that, that sort of, that's a behavior that I've noticed. That has been a part of my past that I can point to now with enough distance between me and that behavior and say like, wow, wish I could get that decade back where I was really, really kind of, uh, Invested in, in the well being of others above my own.

Yeah. That, that, what I, what, you know, and even as for the listeners listening, you know, you're looking for that telltale sign of I self abandon. And so when you look at, okay, are empaths more likely to self abandon? And I think the answer is yes. Because empaths experience a lot of discomfort, right? So when we look at how do I as an empath regulate my nervous system, which is sometimes feeling like it's being assaulted a little bit more than the average person, because I'm sensing and feeling so much in the world.

And what happens is, is in order to protect our [00:10:00] Our nervous system, we really, you know, get the habit going that we have to make everybody happy in our environment in order for us to feel safe in order for us to be able to be in our bodies. Even sometimes people feel like they're almost like, uh, getting out of body when they're around a lot in the environment.

And so we do this thing and it's brilliant. I, you know, I want everybody to know that when you created this, when you were probably five and you created this as a way to be safe, it was. Freaking brilliant. Okay. And what you did was you're saying, okay, in order for me to feel okay and get back into alignment, but also for your nervous system to be regulated and to feel comfortable, you had to make sure everybody was safe in the environment.

And then once everybody was safe, you were no longer experiencing yours. There's everybody's emotions. And so, well, we could take this a step into business too, because it's really interesting when we get into the business track of how it gets stimulated, but. [00:11:00] That is the genius that we created. But then what happens is because there's so much self abandonment, we start to not know who we are, what we want, what we like, what we dislike.

And as you become an adult and you are responsible for creating a life and, and being in relationships that really matter, not knowing those things, not being attached to what you want, who you are, where you're going, you know, what your desires are. And I call those things, the North star, because that those things.

You know, wanting, desiring, those are how we get from point A to B. That's how we expand in life. That's how we grow. That's how we become. Those are intuitive assignments. Those are intuitive pieces of information. And when we get into people pleasing and we have years of that, we lose track of that North star and we're so focused on everybody else.

We don't know what we want. And then we're like, okay, I'm going to create a business. Right? And then we're like, I don't know, it feels really uncomfortable to just even create what I want. Can I even figure out what [00:12:00] I want? It's so hard. Yeah. Does that make sense? Really makes sense. And I relate to a lot of what you just said.

And I always say that entrepreneurship is the ultimate healing journey because everything that you do, everything, every feeling, every experience, it's going to come up. You're going to have to know what you want at some point. If you have this people pleasing habit in place, entrepreneurship will put it right in your face and help and force you to deal with it because you cannot survive pleasing everybody but yourself.

You have to run a business and to do so, you have to know what you want. You have to listen to your gut, your internal. navigation system, that internal GPS that literally is your gut. Gut checking, I think, is one of the most powerful tools in entrepreneurship. And 

 For anyone who is sort of newly stepping on the path of entrepreneurship, if you ever are feeling like, Shit, I'm being tested. Well, that's right. You are being tested. You're being tested by your own, You know, internal beliefs that need to be questioned and maybe sometimes some of them need to be ditched or [00:13:00] programming that was bad programming that we just inherit from, a society that does not necessarily prioritize our well being.

So I feel like empathy in that way, it's kind of is, that's where I'm thinking about it as a superpower. It's like, I'm feeling all these things, including the things that need to be rewired within me to help me live a more fulfilled life. Yes. Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, honestly, that's what, you know, you were going to ask me what got in, what got you into energy healing and yeah.

Can you even just define for us what is energy healing? So basically I tell people, you know, I'm a, I'm a reiki master, reiki teacher. I teach reiki, but I do multiple, I do many modalities.

I did a three year energy medicine school just on a a, a one modality, and it was phenomenal. It was like therapy on steroids. But when I tell people what I do is this, okay? So [00:14:00] when I am working on somebody. Okay, I, you, you, everybody listening here has a certain amount of energy running in your body. We, we know this as fact, this is not new information scientifically or medically.

And so we look at bioelectricity. That's another word that we use that we're more and more comfortable with. Um, the electricity, electricity in your body pumps your heart. It keeps your organs. Your blood flowing, right? Like it is a necessity when you lose that electricity body, you die. So when someone who's an energy, energy healer comes in and they're working on somebody, they're looking to raise up the amount of energy that you have in your body.

They're raising the vibration of the energy. And so we have tools right now that can come in and say, okay. Debra. We're measuring Debra's liver. We're measuring Debra's field. We're measuring Debra's, you know, different parts of your body. And we can say how many gigahertz of energy are in that area. When someone has cancer, for instance, That [00:15:00] gigahertz goes way down.

Interesting. When there's a tumor in the body, all the energy gets sucked in, right? All that energy goes down. When someone's in a really bad mood, your energy is a lower vibration, right? It's, it's a, it sounds like a woo woo word, but it's actually truly based in a foundational belief of science that, you know, there is vibration to the body.

And so when someone comes in to help. do a healing. What I'm doing is I'm working with that vibration. I'm working with all the energy around you. I work with light as well, but we work to basically manipulate the areas of your body that are low in vibration. And the reason why they're low most of the time are these emotional blocks.

Like. I could stand on a, you know, work on a space in your body and you're like, I don't know why I have this chronic illness or whatever in this area. And then we, you could start bawling all of a sudden, you have no idea why, or we could do some other modalities that help us pinpoint. But the reality is, is [00:16:00] that emotion is the basis of all disease.

And, you know, when the body, when that is happening. There's a low vibration. And so I'm kind of facilitating the release of all that, if that makes sense. And so when you leave, you're like, huh, wow, like I had energy. You know, you're tired at first, but then as the day goes on, you're like, Oh, I have energy. I feel better.

I feel open hearted. I feel like I'm going to sing on the way I arrive home when I was in this awful mood before, because we've raised up this vibration, which helps with your brain function and everything. Does that make sense? It's so, yeah, thank you so much for taking time to explain that. And by the way, I love thinking about it that way because I think about that all day long.

, I try to start my day. By, you know, really pouring into my own cup because I'm going to spend my day in service to my clients and my family, my wherever the environment. And so when I was saying earlier recovered, it's mostly because like I've learned to work with it right so now I know like how to protect energy field, you know, I have my little [00:17:00] practices that I do that kind of help to keep the vibration high, but I'm also more aware of.

Sort of how volatile it can be if I dip down into a place where I'm feeling out of balance and for example might remove myself from a situation instead of staying in a situation where I Intuitively feel like oh, this is me My boundaries feel diminished. I do not feel safe instead of staying in the situation and letting it do damage to my life and my body and my stress levels, I'm going to step out and say, thank you very much.

And protect that layer of energy. That's a newly developed skill in the last decade and it's not a finished process. It's a work in progress. This is lifelong for all of us. You know, sometimes people think, Oh, I'm going to take a course. I'm going to do this thing. And then I should be all better, you know, but this is really our soul's evolution.

It's what we came down here for. Right. From that perspective, you know. I love thinking about that. So I want to, I want to dive into business and how being an empath [00:18:00] and having these porous boundaries can show up inside your business. You know, you, you shared with me a term that I would love to chat about, which is I achieving codependency, and you talked about this being a pattern.

Where like success driven individuals, especially people who are empathetic and are very sensitive, tie their worth to how much they can do for others. I want to start there with high achieving codependency. Yeah. . I want to give credit to Terry Cole, who I think is the author of boundary boss.

And I will just want to say that out loud because I did. Pick that up from her and the moment I read it in her book, this was a number of years ago, but I read it I was like, oh my god. I I hated the idea of being codependent. I was like, I can't oh, I don't know There's something yucky about it Like I was like that codependency in my field of psychology anyways has always [00:19:00] been related to you You know this this person who sticks by these people who are addicts who write who who just abuse and you know I don't know there was something about it that I really couldn't I couldn't put it on.

I was like, but I feel like there's something about this that I can really relate to here. When she said that, I was like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, that's me all day. And there's so much fascinating stuff about it. And really, one of the things that's really important to highlight if you're listening, and you want to know if this is you.

And you've already highlighted a couple of things, but I want to point out that that over functioning, people pleasing, perfectionism combo. Right. That sense of feeling like I have to and I should. So one of the things she had termed in this process of a high dependence, high achieving codependency is being somebody who also it has a bit of a compulsion.

to fix to help. It's a little different, right? So when you're like, no, but I really, I really do love [00:20:00] this person and they want them to be good. You feel like you're being a good person, quote unquote, but in reality, you actually have your own compulsion to fix so that you can feel better your own compulsion.

To like overextend yourself, over accommodate, do all the things because when you say to yourself, I have to, no one else is going to do it. I have to do it. When you say that to yourself, I want you to know, oh shoot, that's my compulsion, right? That is a compulsive behavior for you to deal with your own anxiety because your own anxiety towards it all is too much.

And so I have to, or no one else is going to do it type of situation is code red for you're about to step into a compulsion to make yourself feel better. Okay, pause. All, all of my solopreneurs listening to this podcast, because it is literally for you, what Michelle just said is why the first decade of my life as an entrepreneur was.

[00:21:00] More painful than joyful. And the beginning of my healing path to move from that place of feeling like I had to do it because if I didn't do it, nobody else would and then rewarding myself for doing something that nearly broke my back or like pushing myself way past my boundaries in order to check a box and profoundly believing That I had to do it.

I was the only one that would do it that it, and if I didn't do it, people wouldn't get what they needed. And therefore I, my business would fail is if it's a false belief and I will share it transparently, vulnerably that the book. Co dependent no more. I'm sure you're familiar with that was the first step on the path for me of recognizing it So a friend of mine was like, love you so much.

Think you should read this book Cuz I see you doing what I used to do this changed my life. If you feel like it, flip through this book. And I thank him frequently for that. That was 20 years ago.

It's a game changer. And it's [00:22:00] a game changer. And if you're listening and you're like, oh my God, that is me too. I've said that a hundred times. Or I have, I know that if I'm getting real honest with myself, I can, I can own that. I am managing my own anxiety when I say yes to other people, when I overgive and I overextend.

And here's the other piece to it. That's another piece is that when you're a high achieving, high success driven female, it's pretty likely that somewhere along the line, you tied in your worth, right? Your lovability, your, you know, being good enough, but definitely your worth has its own flavor into being productive.

And being a utility being useful. And if that's true for you, and you have that little mixture, your concoction that makes you is that you also are kind of high achieving, then this is you right. And so saying no [00:23:00] feels like a failure. It doesn't just feel like, oh, I don't know how to say it. It actually feels bad to me that I'm, I'm, I'm not succeeding here.

I'm not doing what I'm supposed to, I'm not doing what I need to do. And also just to add that additionally, you also feel like very uncomfortable, likely just. You know, and maybe you could speak to this about yourself back in the day, but even slowing down feels unsafe, right? Even slowing down saying, you know, I'm just, I'm just going to take a week off.

I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna like, you know, not be productive and just relax and just see how your body handles that. you know, see how you do. And some of us have grown beyond that. We've been able to figure out how to be, you know, we're living in an age of meditation right now. And there's so much access to so many things that can help you, but there is definitely an inner motor that is running to keep you safe.

If that makes sense. I'd love to name some of [00:24:00] the specific ways that high achieving codependency shows up inside businesses that really, you know, Well, there's so many ways, right? Like, there's so many ways, like, you know, when you have this high, high achieving stuff, then going on social media and scrolling has you.

Looking around and saying, okay, you can feel really diminished. You know, you look at like, there's 500 people out there doing the same thing as me. What makes me special? Because we do have to feel kind of special, right? We do have to feel like that's part of the success. And so we can really get swallowed up, you know?

, I love this. Conversation I saw with Oprah and Oprah talked about how she made it through the 80s. And I don't know, you might not know, but Oprah Winfrey was up against two other people, , ,Sally, Jessica Raphael, and then Phil Donahue.

And they were huge and all three of them. And. She surpassed them. They just went away, right? And she just kept [00:25:00] going and she kept going and people said, how did you make it past that? Right? Like, how did you get through the competition of that? And she said, point blank in Oprah fashion, I put my blinders on.

I never looked to the left and I never looked to the right. I didn't try to find out what they're doing today, what's going on. I don't need to know anything about them. I'm here as a seed to be planted, to grow and sprout and move forward and become the most me that I can possibly be. I don't need to know what everybody else is doing.

And it makes me think, like, for us, can we do that in the age of social media, right? How do we do that? And the age of social media. How do we put the blenders on? How do we exist? And I think I heard recently something that was really smart and it was like, create more than you consume. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, with, with, with strategy, when I'm talking to business coaches and service providers and helping them figure out what is my strategy to attract my ideal client to, earn more money through [00:26:00] getting in front of a greater pool of candidates who are interested in my services or my product.

My hope is to help each and every one of my clients, like, really pinpoint the right pathway for them to grow with ease. It's possible we see examples all around us, but you do have to kind of dial in your unique set of variables. And one of the things that I say oh, it's like a broken record, is like, do not, do not even let the vanity of likes and follows or any of that stuff.

Even register with you because unless they have opened their wallet gotten out their credit card and said I want to work with you It doesn't matter. They can like you all day. They can follow you all day. They can hate you and It doesn't matter. None of it matters. It's just noise. It's just noise What matters is that you're putting out messaging that attracts the person who wants to come work with you Focus on the people that want to work with you focus on your own lane.

Do not look left. Do not look right But it's so much easier said than done because you do see these examples of businesses out there like influencers for example, like their entire business is popularity and attention. It's an [00:27:00] attention economy So if you're, you know trying to do like run a traditional business And use your social media feed as like the top of funnel to try and attract new people How can you not compare yourself to the people who are out there with?

Hundreds of thousands of followers and clicks and are monetized and it's really hard to not desire to have that level of attention, but you can have a very small list if they're Engaged and listening to you You can make just as much money, if not more, and it's more sustainable because it's grounded in business tenants and not just flash in the pan trends.

I love that. Yeah. I love that so much, Debra. That's such good advice. That's really great advice, but it's hard to put into practice with people because it's so hard for them to get distracted and waste time scrolling. Yes. Well, let's talk about that. You know, let's talk about opening their wallets.

Because, you know, one of the things we can really do when we're out there in this high achieving state of codependency, or we'll just call it people pleasing for short, right? So you're out there and you're doing all this people pleasing stuff. [00:28:00] You know, a lot of us get really caught up when it comes to money.

You know, a lot of us get really caught up like my need to be comfortable means that you're happy, right? And if that's your MO, that like, once you're comfortable, then I'm comfortable. Then asking for money, you know, setting your rates, charging for your time when someone doesn't expect to be charged, you know, like, right.

Or like, you know, people wanting more from you than your, you know, said you're going to give and All these ways that people who are, I call them the over askers versus the over givers, right? We're the over givers and then there's the over askers, right? People who have no qualms asking for more. And so, you know, when we come up against that, it's so triggering.

And so we can really get caught up there and not be able to expand and, and, and really grow when we get really stifled. Is that right? I mean, A hundred percent. Yeah. I really, I was going to say one of the ways that I feel [00:29:00] Sort of The people pleasing characteristic has really reared its head in a bad, in a negative way inside my business practices is what you just named.

And it's something that I, I've had to literally go back and rewrite contracts over and over and over again to include all of these leaky energy places where it's not my client's fault. It is on me. I said I would deliver XYZ and \ yeah, I'm going to deliver XYZ to your, like to please you to the point where you are so happy with XYZ that you're going to go tell your friend.

Well, guess what? Nowhere in there does it describe how many revisions that you get with that, and there have been situations, Michelle, I am not proud of this, where I've said, yeah, I'll deliver something as simple as, like, let's say a PDF document that I've designed, and then people have asked me for, like, hours and hours and hours and hours of more of time designing, revising, designing, revising until it's right.

We're way past the boundary of the contract that I thought I was setting forth, but nowhere in my contract does it say, I won't revise this [00:30:00] 25 times. In fact, there's no mention to how many revisions that you get. It's a non existent boundary. It doesn't, you get to keep on asking me for more because you didn't get what you wanted yet and that you paid for, but that's on me.

A very hard lesson to learn. That's a great example of where I've gotten totally screwed by not having good boundaries. And yeah, presentation of them in wording, you know, in business. Yeah. And, you know, you know, when we talk about boundaries and business and stuff, you know, we're usually thinking about, um, okay, so how am I going to say no to people?

How am I going to set prices and just like hold, right? How am I gonna, you know, like you said, I'm going to have to. Let people know where my line is, because that's what boundaries are. They're a line that we put out there that says, this is what I'm okay with. It's not to manipulate you on the other side of it.

It's not to have power over you. It's really just to show you this is what I'm okay with. And that's why boundaries are so important in any relationship, work relationships, clients. As well as [00:31:00] intimate personal is because that's our way of being seen, known and heard right in a world. And we should be feeling that way in our business, but when we go into the boundary work, we actually realize the most important boundaries.

 Is the boundaries we have with ourself, because the boundaries we have with ourself have to come first. They're foundational to the boundaries we have with everybody else. So it's actually quite difficult for you to go out in the world. And say, I'm gonna say, I'm now, I'm, I'm never doing anything beyond what that, you know, no more leaks in the contract, I'm not going to do anything else beyond what I say.

But if you don't have the boundaries within yourself, the relationship with yourself, right? The healing work done with where I can say, um, you know, I, when I set a goal for myself, when I set a limit for myself, I follow it. Right? When I decide what is good for me, then I follow that. When I, right, there's a power, a personal power needs to be on board for you to go out.

That's why all these [00:32:00] books are talking about , saying no to other people. And you're like, you're reading about it, you're getting the language down, but you can't. Do it because you have to first have the personal power the relationship itself and the boundaries with yourself Does that make sense?

It totally makes sense And so let's say you set the boundary and then somebody who has history with you and isn't used to you having this boundary, suddenly confront, comes up against your new boundary. You've communicated a boundary, you've said, you know what, I've changed the way that I write my contract, for example.

And now the new boundary is that you need to give me 48 hours notice if you're going to cancel a meeting, for example, or you lose that meeting and that's my time, so you're That's your money, forfeited, you know, give me 48 hours notice, we'll reschedule, but if you can't, that's my new boundary. What happens when somebody crosses that boundary because they're testing, they don't even, I'm not even saying it's an intentional thing, like, they're like, oh, I'm going to test her new boundary.

People, like you just said, are just like, entitled, they [00:33:00] got you comfortable with the way you always have been, now you set a boundary, what happens when that person pushes past their boundary, whether it's intentional, Or not is up to your relationship with yourself. Yes. I'm going to stand up and say, no, wait.

It's right here in the new contract. I said right there, unfortunately, you are gone past that deadline, even if it's just by five minutes. And now I've got to say no, like that requires inner strength. It requires some type of personal deep work. Well, 

yeah. And in the courses that I'm doing right now, they're all about how do we, how do we change the beliefs that we have? Because you have a belief. The reason why that's so hard is because you have a belief, right? That in order to be loved, you need to do A, B, C, and D. Right. , please the people around you, that's what you were like, good girl for, right?

When you were growing up, that's like, Oh my God, she's such a good girl, right? When you got the [00:34:00] accolades, it was for doing that. And your life is based on that in terms of keeping everything safe and okay. And now here we are in this situation where someone's pushing against the boundary. And by the way, the people who push against the boundary are the people who really benefited from you not having boundaries.

Right, right. Right. Right. Right. But. And they're just, the way that we need to switch the belief is, Oh, right, Oh, look at that. Right? Not be a mesh in it, not become it, not get our own triggers in it, but Oh, look at that. I teach people to just show up a little compassion, see the person in totality in front of them.

Oh, they're hurting. They struggle. They don't know how to do boundaries. Like they need help. They are struggling. So my point is. Belief system gets changed into very action. What happens on the other side of the fence, you show up to the fence with your, your, your rules, that's your job.

That is literally your job is to communicate with [00:35:00] kindness and compassion, but clarity. Honesty and truth. That's your honest truth. This is my guideline. This is the, this is the role. On the other side of the fence is their reaction to that. You have nothing to do with that. That has nothing to do with you.

Literally, your, your, what's in front of you is probably 30 years of whatever's happened to them and why they're responding the way they are. And so I try to teach people to look at that with compassion and say, well, I have compassion for me. And I can have compassion for you, but I have compassion for both of us.

One, I'm not changing anything because this is what's right for me. And this is what is, um, really important. And that doesn't change nothing as ever going to change on my side of the fence, because I'm in my truth and my, and you know, I don't need other people. This is the belief shift. Yeah. I don't need other people to be okay with that.

Right. As long as I'm in my integrity of being honest and being truthful and being kind, what's going on on the other [00:36:00] side of the fence, that, that person that pushed back on you is being triggered. They're there. They got years of stuff that's running through them right now that has nothing to do with me.

That has nothing to do with any of us. Yeah. And so you say, Oh wow. And I tried instead of being like, You know, all pissed off because they're pushing our buttons and we're right just being like, wow, I'm going to try to have some compassion for you. This is hard for you. I'm not going to change anything on my side of the fence, but I'm going to just say to you, this seems really hard for you.

And this isn't going to change. It is what it is. But let me know if you have any further questions, but this is what it is. And it isn't your job to even help them get better in it. So good, so good, so good. Yeah, I'm thinking about like, so we talked a little bit about how that can show up in social media, it can look like scrolling and feeling like everybody else is ahead of you in the game or just comparisonitis.

It can feel like, you know, feeling diminished if you don't have like all the attention that other people have and feeling like, you're out of [00:37:00] balance if you're not. competing with people who are not even in your industry or niche sometimes. But another area that I feel like this shows up, like this people pleasing characteristic and this lack of boundaries is just in work life balance, like really having balance in your life that reflects that you're a human being with a body, not just a brain, and that your business is, yes, it needs your attention and needs your energy.

But there's gotta be a cutoff point where you're like eating the right, like having balanced meals, and moving your body, and getting exercise, and just getting enough sleep, and staying hydrated, like those basic wellness practices, I find quickly get shoved to the wayside for meeting work deadlines, or meeting financial goals, like they tend to. 

Take, priority over personal balance and wellness. And I, I think that's like something I was curious, like how you view that as. As like an extension of this people pleasing and yeah, yeah, [00:38:00] I think that part of that is the healing work that especially us and entrepreneurs because it really is like all up to us.

But you know, when it comes to a lot of this stuff, um, we really do need to look at our addictions. We need to look at the type of unhealthy attachments we have. And so, for instance, like, you're talking about busy, right? I have to be busy, busy, busy, busy all the time. That can be also treated as an addiction, right?

So, like, we look at the cycle of it, does it look like a cycle of addiction? And so, where are you at in that, right? So, like, we get We get triggered and, you know, then we muscle down, right? And the trigger could even just be like, you know, we signed up for something and said we'd do it, right? Like the trigger can be anything that triggers us and our stuff, right?

You see me like cringing over here. I'm like, the girl that signs up for your course and is at every live activation. Does every piece of homework, turns it in first, like I'm such, I'm so bad. I'm also [00:39:00] feeling really good, like listening to this. Cause my clients will tell you any of my clients listening, y'all know.

I have rock solid wellness boundaries, my day, my morning routine is like several hours of personal care, like I just cannot anymore. But that's only because I crashed and burned so hard, like so many times, and I was like, I'm crawling myself out of this pit of despair, what happened? Oh, I created that scenario.

Back to the drawing board. Yeah, yeah, I mean, right? And so I'm sure people are listening right now. Yes. But there's like, there's reasons why they're hard, you know, and they're, they are, I just want you to hear this. It is possible to heal them and it's possible to change and everything that you want, right?

Like just think about yourself five years ago. What you really wanted for yourself. Can you see how shifting and changing and getting some boundaries and making the changes you have have Absolutely been the foundation of getting to what you actually want. I mean [00:40:00] hindsight is crazy 2020 on that one Yes, number one clear boundaries are attractive. \ and I aspire to do better at it. But, uh, I can look back now. I mean, learning to charge my value, learning to. Hold fast on appointments that I made and if someone doesn't keep their end of the bargain.

I'm like, sorry I can't just reschedule on your time. Like I I have gotten so much better at it and I feel so much freer I have so much more time for the kind of lifestyle that I want to live because of these new boundaries So while it was not, you know, I had to work for it Or I had to unwork for it, right?

It's not about doing more. It's about doing less of the thing you were doing that was causing the problem to begin with. So for me, it's been like an unlearning, but, uh, you know, I mean, look, people pleasing in sales, right?

Undervaluing services to make my potential clients comfortable, like leading to eventually what resentment or me not making enough money. Like, yeah, every all the time I used to do those are like the [00:41:00] options, right? Let's see. I first learned that by not breaking even financially after doing like hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales.

 I talk about this sometimes it's such a painful, uh, truth, \ and I only say it out loud in the hopes that I will inspire or help a young entrepreneur understand that this stuff is not just like a given our first five years in business. We're not profitable five entire whole years of my life.

We made a lot of money and we spent it all because we had terrible boundaries Because I had a partner I'm saying we but it was really I I take full responsibility Such a hard pill to swallow. Oh My gosh. Yes, of course and how like what did that do to your self esteem yourself, right? The bill it's just it's erosive to be in that position and I don't think a lot of us recognize That, you know, we think, Oh, boundary work, you know, Oh, yeah, I should do that thing.

Yeah, I need to get better at that. We [00:42:00] actually, if you actually sit down and take inventory on what is actually happening in your life that you don't like, and how erosive things are, and what's maybe really blocking you, why do you self sabotage what's going on? That's all got to do with your boundaries and your lack of boundaries, right?

The kind of boundaries you have, right? So that's an amazing segue to my next question. What are the healing practices That can help somebody who identifies with a either loose boundaries, leaky boundaries, um, people pleasing characteristics where they can see that they're self sabotaging and they can see Oh, this is the thing that's causing me to lose money, to waste time and feel bad at the end of the day and feel low vibration around my business.

Can we talk about some of the ways that we can start to A, notice that, and then B, begin to, to, to, To maybe pivot. Yeah. I mean, I think you just really nailed it. I mean, there's, I think even just listening to this, there's probably a lot of little sparks going off in terms of like, [00:43:00] ah, that's me or, you know, one, we have to actually be present and show up for it.

We have to recognize it in our lives when it's happening. There's no other time to change anything. But then at the immediate moment, like I can, you can listen to this and think back five years ago, but you can't do anything about that. And you can think about tomorrow, but until you're in tomorrow, that's when you really can do the work.

So I first tell people, you got to start owning the issue. You got to start putting it in the forefront, acknowledge what it is that you want, right? Really get clear. And what is, what do I want? Why, why is it important to do this work? Because if you don't have a connection to the want, if you don't have connection to what.

This is what the value of it and how important it is. Then you're just going to forget about it. You're going to go back because, because the self sabotage is the past path of least resistance. Okay. The, the people pleasing is the path of least resistance. It is the easiest thing to do. Talk more about that.

That's you've been doing it your whole life. Yeah, it hurts, but you'll hurt that hurt way more than it's easy for you to hurt that hurt way [00:44:00] more than it is for you to go out and try something new. That's scarier. It's scarier. Because it's unknown. The discomfort of saying to that person, I'm sorry you can no longer treat me that way.

Yes, or I'm sorry. I don't, I don't offer that service anymore. I'm sorry we've raised our prices. 2 per unit. Sorry, we charge double that price now. Like, all of that boundary setting is painful. Yes, or hey, we have to end right here because I, I'm, I have a life. But, you know, we have to end right here and This is where we're going to do that.

So let's just take a breath and move forward, right? But learning how to manage a coaching session, right? There's so many, whatever you're doing, right? It's learning how to decide what's important is learning how connecting to the why is going to help you move forward. I tell people to make it their password, like put it places, [00:45:00] like get it so that like, Okay, envision it, picture it, put it down and say, okay, this is why I'm doing it.

And then every day set the intention when you wake up, like today, my intention is, is that I'm going to matter. I have a whole thing in my course around how to matter because we have a really hard time with it. So it's like learning how to matter. And so today I'm making the goal that I'm going to matter as much.

It doesn't mean you have to matter more than everybody, but you have to matter as much as everybody. Your equal consideration and just even that mindset shift, right? You just start your day with saying, I'm going to matter. And so little things like that, right? They build, um, shifting and changing, you know, you know, I have to, I can't, you know, uh, right.

And changing a certain language that you're using with yourself to, You know, plant the seeds of, you know, feeling confident and comfortable and setting boundaries. There are certain ways. There's so many [00:46:00] different there's, there's actually a lot. I have to, I have an entire course called the empaths boundary.

Yeah. The modern empaths boundary mastery course is a group coaching program and course, and it's just, there's so much. And I think it's really hard to do by ourselves because I could give you a whole list of stuff, but. The work is so deep because it's so entrenched in our belief system. So in my program, I work to help you identify what the beliefs are that you have so you can recognize like, Oh shit, this is my programming.

Right. And then like, you can actually, we do, we do. the um, we do a lot of different stuff. I do energy work as well and do different things like that to approach it because we know somatically that including the body is absolutely important when it comes to trauma and anything chronic and your people pleasing is chronic.

Yeah. And it's got to do with stuff you're holding in the body. When I tell you when you're facing a moment where you have to set a boundary, you can't tell me you don't feel body, right? You're like Right. You're feeling it. Oh, I, I [00:47:00] feel it. Yeah. You can feel it in your entire physical being. If you're paying attention, you'll notice you haven't taken a deep breath in 10 minutes.

Your stomach is like acid, you know what I mean? Like it really shows up in the body. It really does. And so tell me everything about your program. So it's called the Modern Empaths Boundary Mastery. It's a group coaching program and it's a, um, it's a 12 week group coaching program along with the course.

And so everybody gets on board. I've actually already opened it up previously. So I have a bunch of people in there already. And what we're doing is, um, when we get into it, you're going to receive the course and you start to do that. You know that bit of work I try to make it like a half an hour and then you have a lot of the weeks during the time you also have activations to listen to so you're kind of like learning from me then you're getting the activation to kind of get that in the body and then we meet on you know on Mondays and so we meet and we will go through like our experiences and what we're coming up [00:48:00] against and you know because what we're And so what other people are experiencing is, is incredible to witness because it's exactly what you're experiencing.

And so you need to see it to feel it, right? Yeah, yeah, that sounds amazing. So it's 12 weeks. It's 12 weeks, yeah. Specifically to acknowledge and, and build the tools to be able to identify boundary issues and repair and heal them. And repair and heal them too. It takes time. And so I've had people go through a four week program before and, They will tell you like their life's changed.

I mean, that's the feedback, right? Like, I feel like my life changed. And guess what? They're now signed up for this because it's lifelong work, right? So it's like, it's it is it is a every time is a next level of growth, right? But certainly, if you're a business owner, if you're somebody that like, I have to get past this, I think that's what it.

It's so important that you mentioned in the beginning is like owning a business, creating a business, even just in any aspect of our vocation, we are [00:49:00] challenged so much in this area and it can be make or break. Right. It can totally be make or break. How you can actually shut you down forever if you don't fix the problem.

Right. So. But one of the things, um, if you don't mind me mentioning here is that I'm also have a, so I, so next week on Tuesday, I don't know when this is airing, but I am going to have a couple of masterclasses that are free. So if people are curious about those. course. They can show up at masterclass is called the self sabotage trap, and it's four ways to accomplish more with soul loving boundaries.

And so we're going to really talk about like the relationship with self. That's going to be the focus is sort of those self boundaries and the relationship with self. We are going to get into some of the limiting beliefs and some of the things that programming that needs to change. And some interesting things I think about, um, sabotage, self sabotage that you might not know.

So the self sabotage trap, it's Tuesday the 18th. Tuesday the 18th of March at [00:50:00] 7 p. m. and then I'm going to do it again on Saturday at 12 noon. Okay, I will be, I think, I'm going to try and come on Tuesday the 18th because this sounds like something I would greatly benefit from, even though I've done so much good work on this.

So, because it never ends. It never ends. So for anyone who's interested, I can put the link in the show notes and they can sign up and register for free to come to this. Absolutely, yes. And what, and so just to get clear, what we're going to expect from the class, is it like a 90 minute class, an hour? So it's about an hour, you know, I mean, my goal is for it to be an hour I'm, I'm working on keeping within my boundary of an hour.

And in my mind, you're going to include a little bit of an energy healing process. Yeah, I, yes. In order to stay within the hour, I'm going to have to keep it really short, but I'm just going to do a little activation to just kind of give you a taste of what it's like to kind of go inwards and do a little reprogramming yourself, which is really an important part of.

of doing this work. I mean, you have to, you got to do it all. So, um, we're going to hit upon four things that I work with all my clients, a [00:51:00] lot of my clients on. This is the four parts of things. These are the four things that I work myself and I've come a long way. I really was incredible people pleaser.

We didn't even get into that piece, but I mean, I really, really was at the point where I had chronic illness because of it. And Healing that really was about healing the people that are in me, was healing the boundaries and healing my personal power and my relationship to self. So that is what I'm here to do with the world now, right?

So, but yeah, so these are the four pieces, you know, I had to narrow it down to put it into an hour. So, uh, you know, there's a lot more work to be done and that's why there's the course, but the masterclass will at least give you a flavor of like, these are some important things that I can be. Put in the forefront, right?

Get it up front so I can pay attention to it so I can start looking at it. You know what you said about developing an internal sense of Like learning to hone in and hear that agitation and understand that that's not a good thing and, and, and to [00:52:00] like say, Oh, I'm going to step away from this situation and, and sort of put my, put a little bit of space between myself and the thing that is causing the discomfort because you feel the discomfort and acknowledge that that is not normal.

. So when somebody has a trauma responsive freeze, You freeze when you have a trauma response of flight.

You're like, how the hell do I get out of this situation as fast as possible? And you run out, right? When you are a fight, then you get agitated, aggravated. When that person says to you, Hey, um, I'm going to need, you know, I'm not going to honor your policy. I think I would prefer to keep it how I like it.

Right. And they challenge you. Instead, your response might be like to get angry, to feel like you need to fight. Like, how dare you? Right? And so a lot of the ways that we show up in our trauma responses to life, the things that have happened to us show up in how we show up in our boundaries. And so the emotional reaction we have to setting boundaries.

And so it can be really helpful to kind of say, okay, I [00:53:00] freeze. I'm a freezer. That's who I am. I'm a freezer for sure. Actually, I'm uh, over, what I do is, there's something else called fawning, I don't know if you've heard of that, but that's when like, you try, when somebody hurts you, you try to get them to like you.

Yes, that's called fawning, it's really. There's so much to unpack. There's so much to unpack, but we, I know. Modern empath, boundary mastering. Yes. And there's a free masterclass called the self sabotage trap happening. Yes. And it's a self sabotage trap for secrets to accomplishing more with soul loving boundaries.

 I can't wait to share this. It's going to be great. Anyone listening, grab the link, register. I'm going to see you there. All my solopreneurs out there cringing while you listen to this. I need you in that class. If you listen to this episode and you're like, holy shit, that's me. I invite you to get on this now because it took me way too long.

I really do look back and regret waiting so long to heal this issue in my life. But the good news is, [00:54:00] and I am living proof, it does get better if you work for it. And guess what? Life is so much happier when you're not pleasing everybody and you learn to take care of yourself. So it really is such a valuable practice.

Michelle, you're amazing for creating a space for people to actually move through these processes. What a gift to the world. I really appreciate that. And I'm so grateful that you were able to join me today and talk a little bit about being an empath and setting some boundaries. Any, any final words that you want to share with somebody who's new in business, who's feeling like, yeah, that might be me.

I might be an empath, I might be needing some, uh, some boundary work. I guess I might just say off the cuff, I might just say, Hey, let's use this opportunity of starting your own business as like a new, deeper relationship with yourself to go let this business be an expression of how much you love yourself and how amazing you can be in the world.

Allowing yourself. [00:55:00] To really stand in your power and whatever gets in the way of that is where your work is because right, that's whatever gets in the way of you feeling like you're in love with yourself and you're standing in your power and your, your business is an expression of your unique self in the world, right?

Then that's where your work is a woman. Yeah. I love that very much. That was so well said. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, you know the drill. I'm so grateful that you're listening and that you're here with me and Michelle today on this, uh, podcast. And as always, I look forward to meeting up with you again next week. And until then, may you be vibrant.